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Bolton vs. Trump 續 - Bolton 接受訪問



這裏主要是對 Bolton 訪問的一些摘要。

前國家安全顧問 John Bolton 出書了!


前國家安全顧問 John Bolton 背刺 Trump 的事件繼續發酵。

Trump 的幕僚和核心支持者有些已表了態。國務卿 Pompeo 在美國國務院的官網上發了 I Was In The Room Too [1],說雖然他還沒有看過書,但 Pompeo 認為 Bolton 在書中寫的是半真半假的謊言。

I’ve not read the book, but from the excerpts I’ve seen published, John Bolton is spreading a number of lies, fully-spun half-truths, and outright falsehoods. It is both sad and dangerous that John Bolton’s final public role is that of a traitor who damaged America by violating his sacred trust with its people. To our friends around the world: you know that President Trump’s America is a force for good in the world.

而美國貿易代表 Lighthizer 則否認 Trump 和習近平說過讓中國購入美國農產品,讓 Trump 拿到農業州的選票 [2]。

John Bolton 接受 ABC 訪問


面對眾多川普支持者的攻擊,共和黨強硬派的 John Bolton 以純爺們的方式反擊,接受了 ABC Martha Raddatz 的訪問,以下是訪問文字版全文 [3]。

TRANSCRIPT: John Bolton interview with ABC News' Martha Raddatz

RADDATZ: So why wouldn't President Trump want to know about those facts?
BOLTON: Because I think it shows a pattern quite contrary to the image he would like to convey, of a decisive president who knows something about what he's doing. There really isn't any guiding principle -- that I was able to discern other than-- what's good for Donald Trump's reelection.

被問到為甚麼 Trump 不想讓別人知道書中的內容,Bolton 說因為川普在政治公關上所展現的果斷且有一定見識形象,與書中所展示的總統本人行為模式不符,川普行事沒有一個中心的指導思想,他的所作所為都是為有利連任。



然後 Bolton 又說 Trump 作為總統對於情報滙報不上心,總統應該更頻繁地吸取到底發生了甚麼事,而不是隔一兩星期才叫人來向他滙報,而滙報的時侯總統先生本人的發言卻佔了一半時間。

RADDATZ: And that brings us to his briefings. What were his briefings like? Was he reading his briefings? How often did he get intelligence briefings?
BOLTON: Well, my experience was he very rarely read much. The intelligence briefings took place perhaps once or twice a week.
RADDATZ: Is that unusual?
BOLTON: It's very unusual. They should take place every day. The president should read extensively the material he's given. It's not clear to me that he read much of anything. I think too many people attended the briefings. There were perhaps eight, ten people in the room most times.

Bolton 之後又說 Trump 不看情報,對狀況沒有足夠的認識,令他對一些政策決定沒有深刻的連貫性。這種政策上的連貫性缺失,在國家安全領域會有重大的問題。

Bolton 又批評即使大家都知道總統不是全知全能 (Trump 以為芬蘭是俄羅斯一部份),但起碼要聽聽該領域專家的意見,而不是和身邊的行外人交流並將這些非專業意見帶入政策形成過程。

Bolton 繼續說 Trump 過於執著於短期連任,令到他的一些決策長期國家利益。Trump 樂於和金正恩合照做 show,覺得朝美兩國領導人一起影一影相又是做了一單 deal,卻沒有深思國際社會對此的觀感會是怎樣,Bolton 認為現在許多國家的政要都覺得 Trump 行事虛浮不實,對一些重大問題上沒有足夠的政治深度。

The president repeatedly said that he wanted to do a big arms control deal with Russia. But we never really had specific conversations about what that might be, what the implications would be, issues that are extraordinarily complicated for anybody. It's difficult for any president who comes in. But to learn the issues and to be ready to discuss them, you have to -- you have to do the homework. And that I'm afraid far too often just never took place.

嗯,然後 Bolton 再次抱怨總統在展現其宏大構思前,又不好好做功課。

若果不看名字,還以是左翼媒體和反川人士在嘲諷總統沒有做功課,但這是經歷幾任總統的 John Bolton 在說 Donald Trump 沒有好好做功課。

NBC: On Trump's calendar, just 17 intelligence briefings in 85 days [4]

Donald Trump does not read his crucial daily intelligence briefing, interrupts the CIA official who delivers it to pass on gossip from Garry Player and lashes out at 'bad' news, intel officials say [5]

我和習主席是 Buddy

我和習近平主席是 Buddy,讓我們一起做 deal 吧

RADDATZ: I want to talk about politics and reelection again. Bob Gates wrote that President Obama, his decision making, was based on domestic political concerns as well. But you do seem to be going much further here, writing, "It's the only thing that Trump couldn't tell the difference between his personal interests and the country's interests."
BOLTON: Well, this is a very serious aspect of the national security policy of the Trump administration. The president over and over again seemed to think that a good personal relationship with Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un, the ayatollahs, Erdogan of Turkey, was equivalent to a good relationship between the United States and their respective countries.

Bolton 說 Trump 混淆了個人家族利益與國家利益。並且以為和習近平、普京、金正恩、土耳其統總、伊朗宗教領袖互為 buddy,就是讓美國和這些國家建立了良好關係。

Trump 過於關注把國際關係當成做 deal,上來就先吹噓一下習主席是 Great Leader,然後開始商業式的談判,我現在利益受損了,那你幫我買點大豆,我也能拿到這些農業州的選票,win win。然後做 deal 的過程卻沒有深思中國強制外資做的科技轉移,各種國家補貼有甚麼深遠影響,一兩斤大豆到底換不換得來前端性的科技研究。

RADDATZ: Describe to me, sum up Donald Trump's foreign policy.
BOLTON: Well, I don't think you can do that. I don't think there is a policy. My point is that policy is derived from careful thinking, analysis, building up evidence, the critical strategic task of matching resources with priorities. He just doesn't do that.

Bolton 挖苦 Trump 本質上沒有可總結的外交政策。因為所謂的政策背後必定要有相應的深思熟慮、長遠分析、理點考究、資配戰略調度。

而以上種種政策該有的東西,川普都沒有,Trump 本人實際上沒有任何外交政策連貫性,幸好美國總統不夠強人,所以美國政府專業幕僚與政界共識的政策連貫性沒有被 Trump 的隨性打成骨折,在一些事情上還是能夠 "正確" 地運作。

That's part of the problem. You could argue about the wisdom of a policy that was hard on human rights, hard in defense of Hong Kong, hard in defense of American interests in the South China Sea -- versus some other policy. But when the policy one day is harsh and the next day it's not, next day it's something else, that's not a policy at all.

Bolton 稱 Trump 的時硬時軟,左右搖擺不是做 deal 策略,而是其本人沒有核心指導戰略思想,亦沒有對國家安全問題有足夠深刻的理解。

So I think whether it's after four years or eight years -- whoever succeeds the Trump administration is gonna have an enormous amount of repair work to do. To me, as a lifelong conservative, this is extraordinarily disappointing. It's a huge missed opportunity. We had eight years, I think, of very poorly designed foreign and defense policy under Barack Obama. I saw the Trump administration as a chance to correct it. And we corrected precious little.

作為一個知名的強硬派人物,Bolton 又指奧巴馬八年的外交政策他不能苟同,原來他期望 Trump 上任可以有所作為,然後卻是作為甚少。

But again, if the president's reelected, he will come back not from the harsh rhetoric about China we've seen in the past couple months, he will come back to the great white whale of the Trump administration, the big trade deal with China. And there's no telling what the terms of that deal will be.

Bolton 甚至認為若果 Trump 連任,COVID 19 這幾個月來對中國強硬的川普將會消失不見,川普會再將心力放在和中國做 deal 上。

BOLTON: Well, it was unusual in the Ukraine. It was not so unusual in other countries. As I mention in the book with respect to China, the idea that buying agricultural products was a good thing in the farm states, whose electoral votes Trump needed. He talked about it all the time in those terms. And there were plenty of people on the American side in the room who heard it. And more importantly, there were plenty of people on the Chinese side in the room who heard it as well.

Bolton 指他說 Trump 要習主席買大豆這件事很多人都知道,不止美方的人,也有中方的人。

金正恩是一個 Great Leader


BOLTON: Well, I was very concerned that he would give away things that he didn't need to give away. And as I describe in the book, and has received massive press coverage at the time, he told Kim Jong Un we would give up, what he called, "the war games on the Korean peninsula," which caused enormous heartburn at the Defense Department.
They felt they had been left out of the decision. So had I, so had Mike Pompeo, so had John Kelly. We had all been left out of that. This was a case where after almost two years in office, the president didn't seem to understand that the war games, as he called them, were critical to American and South Korean ability to be ready to withstand pressure from North Korea.
You know, the motto of our forces in the Pacific and in South Korea in particular is "fight tonight," meaning we have to be ready. We don't get to decide when the hostilities start. And to pull down these engagements, these exercises, because they displeased Kim Jong Un, I just thought was an act of folly.

Bolton 又指 Trump 為了和金正恩示善意,在沒有和美國國防部及其核心幕僚商討前,就對金正恩說他讓美國放手在朝鮮半島的 "軍事遊戲"。做這件事前,自把自為的總統連其忠誠支持者 Pompeo 都沒有對談過。

但 Trump 也不是甚麼都沒有得到,畢竟能和金正恩元帥合照,是一件每一個地球人都感到榮耀的事,deal is done,創造了別人創造不了的 "歷史性" 的改變。

BOLTON: Because there were times when we were very close to making concessions that I think even prior administrations like the Clinton and Obama administration wouldn't have made. But if your goal is to pursue a deal, and the substance of the deal really doesn't matter, what you want is to announce we've made a deal, it's not that hard to make a deal, if you're prepared to give away enough. And if you don't fully appreciate what it is you're giving away, or the nature of the adversary negotiating on the other side of the table, you can make some pretty serious mistakes.



然後 Trump 就說和金正恩元帥寫信交流,並且墮入了愛河


'We fell in love:' Trump swoons over letters from North Korea's Kim [6]


BOLTON: The threat from North Korea today is absolutely greater. Because while all these photo opportunities were taking place, there's absolutely no doubt that North Korea's work on both its nuclear and ballistic missile programs continued. It's one of the most secretive societies on the planet.




當訪問人問到俄國斯普京時,Bolton 認為普京 "能將川普玩弄於鼔掌之中"。

RADDATZ: Let's move to Vladimir Putin. How would you describe Trump's relationship with Vladimir Putin?
BOLTON: I think Putin thinks he can play him like a fiddle. I think Putin is smart, tough. He plays a bad hand extremely well. And I think he sees that he's not faced with a serious adversary here. And he works on him, and he works on him, and he works on him.

Bolton 認為 Trump 應該正視俄羅斯一直在干預美國選擇這個事實,俄國的目標是分化美國,攻擊美國式民主的不合理性與認受性。

儘管 Trump 認為一旦接受這種 "假說",會讓人覺得民主黨人對他的通俄門攻擊都是對的。Bolton 說俄羅斯在冷戰時期就一斷干預美國政治。

They have a doctrine and a strategy. They call it Asymmetric Warfare. They understand exactly what they're doing. And I don't think it's because they-- that Vladimir Putin really thinks it's great to have Donald Trump as president. I think Vladimir Putin and their strategy rests on the real perception that American politics today is very fraught, very tense, very difficult.
Everything they can do to stir mistrust, to undercut the legitimacy of our democratic institutions helps to paralyze America. And a weaker, more paralyzed, more divided America is in Russia's interests. They're having great success at it.

俄羅戰一直精於此道,並且有過巨大成功的案例,例如造出一個新聞,說愛滋病是美國研究出來的生化武器。這個由 KGB 主導的工作被稱為 Operation INFEKTION

KGB 大成功的 Operation INFEKTION

Bolton 稱 Trump 容易受到像普京那樣的獨裁者 "玩弄"。

BOLTON: President Putin prepares very comprehensively for meetings. He knows the people he's talking to. He thinks about what he wants to say. He thinks about the points he wants to accomplish. And I think he looks at somebody like Donald Trump and says to himself -- as an old KGB officer, "How am I gonna get him to the place I want him to be?"
I think that's a level of preparation, of thoroughness -- of -- pre-planning that just would not register with Donald Trump. That's not to say Putin succeeds all the time. But he has a plan and he pursues it. And I can just see the smirk when he knows he's got him following his line. It's almost transparent.


Bolton 在採訪中又提到通烏門,也是這個丑聞導致了 2019 年尾的總統彈劾,指總統利用聯邦力量向烏克蘭施壓,要求烏克蘭當局調查 Trump 的政治對手 Joe Biden。Bolton 認為這極度不妥,而且這不只是 Bolton 自己認為不妥,在政府高層還有其他人認為 Trump 這樣做很不妥。

But he wanted a probe of Joe Biden in exchange for delivering the security assistance that was part of the congressional legislation that had been passed several years before. So that in his mind, he was bargaining to get the investigation, using the resources of the federal government, which I found very disturbing.
And I found it using national security to advance his own political position. Now, in the course of the impeachment affair, the defense of the president was he cares about the general corruption in the Ukraine. And that was on his mind. That's utter nonsense.
There's corruption all over the world. The corruption he was concerned about in Ukraine was that they tried to take him down. And that, to me, was something that I found very disturbing. So did a lot of other people in very senior levels in the government. I describe that in the book. And our objective was to find a way to get the president to approve the security assistance, the military aid, and get it delivered, and not tie it to an investigation of his political opponents.


但 Bolton 順手也挖苦了一下民主黨人,他不認同民主黨人彈劾的策略,認為民主黨人沒有在彈劾過程中爭取對 Trump 不滿的共和黨人,令整個彈劾案變成另一次吃瓜式的政治摔跤,沒有形成應有的統一戰線。

他以此來解釋為甚麼他不在彈劾案時出來搞事,他認為現在這個時間點是比彈劾案更好,彈劾案時別人的目光只關注於瑣碎的黨爭與互舉手指,而現在這個時間點大家更關注到底 Trump 做過甚麼,到底 Trump 適不適合連任。

My view is when you take the extraordinary step of removing a president from office, you have to do it in a serious way. The only way to win an impeachment would have been to get Republicans to go along. And the Democrats abandoned that idea almost before they got started.

土耳其 Halkbank 案

Bolton 指 Trump 曾經對土耳其總統 Erdogan 說,Halkbank 在紐約被調查,但現在那群人都是奧巴馬的人,等我換上了我的人馬我會幫你處理妥妥的。

這翻對話再次震驚了 John Bolton。

And the president said to Erdogan at one point, "Look, those prosecutors in New York are Obama people. Wait till I get my people in and then we'll take care of this." And I thought to myself -- and I'm a Department of Justice alumnus myself -- "I've never heard any president say anything like that. Ever."


然後又提到中興 (ZTE) 制裁案,Bolton 說 Trump 即興地對習主席說,他能免掉了中興的制裁。

BOLTON: Well, again the circumstances were such: ZTE was violating American laws with respect to Iran sanctions and the disclosure that they were making. And Secretary Wilbur Ross of the Commerce Department imposed penalties on ZTE. These were not penalties that were harsher on ZTE than they would've been for an American company doing exactly the same thing.
And in the course of a conversation with Xi Jinping, the president said he'd rescind the penalties for basically in exchange for nothing. I mean, it's one thing if you had a clear foreign policy rationale to downplay a criminal or regulatory proceeding because of a larger strategic interest.
It's quite another just to do it off the cuff, on the whim, give your buddy Xi Jinping a benefit. This was not part of some sustained interagency policy making process. This was just conversation with Xi Jinping. And I find that very troubling.

川普果然和習主席是 Buddy。

Steve Mnuchin

提到 Trump 的內閣 Steve Mnuchin。

RADDATZ: Steve Mnuchin?
BOLTON: Well, Mnuchin is a Democrat. And the views that he recommended, go light on sanctions on Russia, don't sanction the Chinese, don't sanction Maduro, don't sanction the North Koreans so harshly, are all the positions of a big business Democrat, which is fine in a big business Democratic type administration. I don't know what he was doing in the Trump administration, other than he was an outstanding fundraiser for the president and a supporter that was close to family for him.

COVID 19 處理

Bolton 認為 Trump 對 COVID 19 的處理非常差。

RADDATZ: ...We're in the middle of a pandemic. How do you think the president has handled that?
BOLTON: I think he's handled it very poorly. There're a lot of criticisms about what happened-- who was responsible and so on. The main problem the administration has had with coronavirus is the empty chair behind the resolute desk in the Oval Office. In early January, people, whether on the staff of the National Security Council or the Centers for Disease Control and elsewhere were saying, "This is a potential problem."
Donald Trump didn't wanna hear about it. He didn't wanna hear about it because he didn't wanna hear bad things about Xi Jinping. He didn't wanna hear bad things about China covering up what had happened with the outset of the disease. He didn't wanna hear bad things about the Chinese economy that could affect the fantastic trade deal he was working on, No. 1.
And No. 2, he didn't wanna hear anything about an exogenous variable that could have a negative effect on the American economy, which he saw as his ticket to reelection. So for months, it was contained. It wasn't a problem. There was no economic effect.
And I think we lost a lotta time because of that. That is an example of making policy out of your hip pocket, without systematic consideration of what needs to be done, despite being warned by the people charged with making the warnings that it was coming.

美國警暴 / George Floyd 案 / Black Lives Matters

Bolton 認為 Trump 對 George Floyd 案的處理非常差。

RADDATZ: And his response to the killing of George Floyd?
BOLTON: Well, I think the issue of resolving racial tensions in America is one that's not gonna be solved overnight. I think the president's reaction -- from his own political point of view, which again, is the only thing he thinks about -- was very misguided.
And I think it could well push the electorate toward his opponent. I think the answer for police forces all over the country, and I speak as somebody whose father was a firefighter and who lived next to a policeman for most of my young boyhood is that each city's gonna have to confront this on its own. And there's no one-size-fits-all answer. I think that -- I think none of these considerations have entered into the president's thinking.
RADDATZ: Former Defense Secretary Mattis said that the president doesn't even pretend to try to unite the American people. You and Mattis didn't always agree, but do you agree with that?
BOLTON: Well, I think he does what's in his electoral interest. And in this case, he obviously hasn't seen any virtue in trying to find a way to lessen the tensions that we've seen. I have to say, that doesn't mean that others have done better.

生氣的 Bolton 決定撕票

BOLTON: I don't think he's fit for office. I don't think he has the competence to carry out the job. I don't think he's a conservative Republican. I'm not gonna vote for him in November. Certainly not gonna vote for Joe Biden either. I'm gonna figure out a conservative Republican to write in. But this comes back to the point of why I wrote the book.

因為 Trump 種種不合理、短視、隨性、自私、愚蠢的舉動,Bolton 認為 Trump 不適合繼續當總統,生氣的 Bolton 甚至覺得 Trump 根本不能算是一個堅持保守價值的共和黨人,在政治哲學上 Trump 是一個假的保守主義者,他並不理解甚麼是保守主義哲學。

Bolton 不會投 Trump 一票,也不會投 Joe Biden 一票,他決定在 2020 年的大選撕票不選。Bolton 還說他希望 Trump 只做一屆,不然美國將會跟著 Trump 不可逆轉地下行,若果 Trump 做多 4 年,將會為美國帶來更大的災難。

嘗試用眼神殺死 Trump 的 Bolton

[1] https://www.state.gov/i-was-in-the-room-too/

[2] https://thehill.com/policy/international/503262-lighthizer-denies-bolton-claim-that-trump-asked-xi-for-election-help

[3] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/transcript-john-bolton-interview-abc-news-martha-raddatz/story?id=71287825

[4] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/trump-s-calendar-just-17-intelligence-briefings-85-days-n967386

[5] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8344273/Donald-Trump-does-not-read-crucial-daily-intelligence-briefing-lashes-bad-news.html

[6] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-usa-trump/we-fell-in-love-trump-swoons-over-letters-from-north-koreas-kim-idUSKCN1MA03Q


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Bolton vs. Trump